Cardgame Coalition

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

+8
Jordan, Lich Lord
HiveNet
Kyousuke Kousaka
Rodrigo
Dem the Dragophile
Johnny
Ashiok
Ruby
12 posters

    Deck Restrictions

    Yuzuru Otonashi
    Yuzuru Otonashi
    Experienced Member
    Experienced Member


    Posts : 645
    Rep : 18
    Join date : 2012-04-14
    Age : 31
    Location : The Moon

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Yuzuru Otonashi Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:49 pm

    Thus, Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, like Chris said. The line can still be used as an Engine for somewhat consistent, powerful, +0 riding, with a hopeful +2 at the end of it, but that's all it is now.

    tl;dr Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, Tsukuyomi the Engine is still thinking it can.
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member


    Posts : 1116
    Rep : 4
    Join date : 2012-05-01
    Age : 30
    Location : Above your garage.

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:56 am

    Yuzuru Otonashi wrote:Thus, Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, like Chris said. The line can still be used as an Engine for somewhat consistent, powerful, +0 riding, with a hopeful +2 at the end of it, but that's all it is now.

    tl;dr Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, Tsukuyomi the Engine is still thinking it can.

    As is the Tsukuyomi concept, with that decklist.

    On another laughable community note, never go to Facebook for anything ever.
    Rodrigo
    Rodrigo
    Admin
    Admin


    Posts : 5430
    Rep : 76
    Join date : 2012-04-03
    Age : 30
    Location : Maringá - Paraná - Brazil

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Rodrigo Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:17 am

    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:On another laughable community note, never go to Facebook for anything ever.

    Like Tumblr.

    Common knowledge people, always keep it in mind.
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member


    Posts : 1116
    Rep : 4
    Join date : 2012-05-01
    Age : 30
    Location : Above your garage.

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:18 am

    CDDRodrigo wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:On another laughable community note, never go to Facebook for anything ever.

    Like Tumblr.

    Common knowledge people, always keep it in mind.

    Touya's from Tumblr. I don't think you want to go that route, mate.
    Jordan, Lich Lord
    Jordan, Lich Lord
    Legendary Member
    Legendary Member


    Posts : 8213
    Rep : 45
    Join date : 2012-04-05
    Age : 27

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Jordan, Lich Lord Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:07 am

    Facebooks not bad if you ignore idiots. Which means dont ever go to a public page Smile

    And stay away from the games that will take up a year of your life before you realize you're not really doing anything.
    Touya
    Touya
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member


    Posts : 128
    Rep : 16
    Join date : 2012-07-25
    Age : 31
    Location : Cincinnati

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Touya Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:33 am

    I...have and had a lot of things to say about the restricted list, but as most of them have gone up on other sites already it just feels like I'm repeating myself.

    The new model for Tsukuyomi does work as Amaterasu support if you want CEO's megablast as an option, since Inaba ties back to both Tsuku and the new Goddess crossride, but if you're looking to focus solely on Goddess of the Sun then you might instead accept LuLu as a default FVG because of her guaranteed +2 versus Ichibyoshi's sometimes-on sometimes-off increase in advantage. The Tsukuyomi fusion feels more coherent as a strategy, but I think we'd need to try mirror match testing on whether LuLu's guaranteed extra card and access to Silent Tom or Godhawk-Tsuku's soul support with Tagitsuhime is more beneficial to the Goddess deck.

    I feel that the fact that Barcgal and his restriction was accepted without controversy compared to the various reactions to the new list does show that this is not necessarily a needed adjustment to the game. How many of us were calling out for Tsukuyomi and Alfred to be restricted before this? Has anyone ever actually called these two cards broken? I don't think that being able to run Tsuku at four is a bad thing, Tanaka-type decks are innovation at work and this strategy keeps an old deck contemporary. The fact that every first-place national championship deck has now been made unusable...the way that this new list works, it seems that Bushiroad is just going to restrict whatever makes it to the championship finals from now on, to make it impossible for any deck from a previous year to top in the following ones.

    I consider assuming a massive, ever-changing restricted list to be inevitable the wrong attitude. It's not an organic evolution of the game rules. One of the unique points about Cardfight is that up to now, there hasn't been a real "restricted" list. The game balance was praised for this reason, and I think my sister described it best when she asked me why these cards weren't just not printed in the first place. The institution of heavy restrictions means that in the future, we could be headed towards a similar situation to the previous Big 3 card games, where you're playing an entirely different game every four months because of the new restricted list or set rotation. And it's doubtful that the new list won't eventually come to the EN scene, considering that the Barcgal restriction that for so long seemed to not be coming did finally enter into our format. Would we be complaining if the list were instead;

    • Majesty Lord Blaster
    • Wingal Brave
    • Lizard Soldier Conroe
    • Dragonic Overlord The End
    While on one hand it's good that Bushi pays attention to the pro scene, on the other I can't rationalize sacrificing the average fighters that are doing this for fun as the right way to go about it. These restrictions apply at the shop level, so it's not like they're unaffected by the restricted list. And if shops don't obey the restricted list so that these players can participate, that only goes further to highlight the sentiment of it as illegitimate. My deck isn't personally affected by this, but I don't like the idea of my friends eventually being excluded from using the decks that they put so much time and money into designing, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent for the future of the game to have a large number of cards restricted. What if designers start designing cards intending for them being restricted? Cardfight doesn't have an "item" or "magic" card mechanic like other games, something like Pokemon's ACE SPECs wouldn't fly the same way here. Having a restricted list also makes it difficult for new players to get into the game; Yu-Gi-Oh! by comparison is very difficult to get into because kids and adults alike don't enjoy the bureaucracy of having to memorize an everchanging lineup of illegal cards to know what of their collection is permitted in a deck. From my perspective, it's a Pandora's box that we'd be better off having not opened.

    This isn't something that I think is worth quitting the game over, but it's discouraging, you know?

    HiveNet wrote:Not a shock that this was coming. However, I think it's
    a trial thing personally. The logic some players are putting to it are
    atributting it to a letter sent by someone complaining about Majesty
    Lord Blaster, DOTE and PBO being to powerful and that they should be
    changed for the english edition.

    I'd like to clarify with some details about this particular point before I stop, that someone is Alice, a very prolific cardfighter and writer who's been influencing the English side of the game. It's not just one letter that she wrote--Alice created a forum thread to try and convince as many people as possible to fill out a form letter and send it to Bushiroad's EN facilities, and as I recall Bushi eventually responded, saying that they forwarded the letters to the "relevant department." Currently it's unknown if this carried a concrete impact since it could be a typical company dismissal reply and if Bushi modified those cards then they'd have to modify all future crossrides, but that's the basic summary of what went down with this. It seems unlikely that her letters were the motivation behind the list though, because Bushiroad's English and Japanese divisions are managed separately and the list coincided with Eboshida Hiromi's The End deck taking the junior national title while Nakamura Seishirou's (no relation to the Nakamura Seishirou from the Winter tournaments, different kanji same reading) Majesty Lord deck became the senior national one. Alice also asked for Phantom Blaster Overlord to be restricted or modified, and that being the one deck that didn't make it to the senior or junior finals, nothing's happened to it.
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member


    Posts : 1116
    Rep : 4
    Join date : 2012-05-01
    Age : 30
    Location : Above your garage.

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:02 am

    Touya wrote:I...have and had a lot of things to say about the restricted list, but as most of them have gone up on other sites already it just feels like I'm repeating myself.

    The new model for Tsukuyomi does work as Amaterasu support if you want CEO's megablast as an option, since Inaba ties back to both Tsuku and the new Goddess crossride, but if you're looking to focus solely on Goddess of the Sun then you might instead accept LuLu as a default FVG because of her guaranteed +2 versus Ichibyoshi's sometimes-on sometimes-off increase in advantage. The Tsukuyomi fusion feels more coherent as a strategy, but I think we'd need to try mirror match testing on whether LuLu's guaranteed extra card and access to Silent Tom or Godhawk-Tsuku's soul support with Tagitsuhime is more beneficial to the Goddess deck.

    I feel that the fact that Barcgal and his restriction was accepted without controversy compared to the various reactions to the new list does show that this is not necessarily a needed adjustment to the game. How many of us were calling out for Tsukuyomi and Alfred to be restricted before this? Has anyone ever actually called these two cards broken? I don't think that being able to run Tsuku at four is a bad thing, Tanaka-type decks are innovation at work and this strategy keeps an old deck contemporary. The fact that every first-place national championship deck has now been made unusable...the way that this new list works, it seems that Bushiroad is just going to restrict whatever makes it to the championship finals from now on, to make it impossible for any deck from a previous year to top in the following ones.

    I consider assuming a massive, ever-changing restricted list to be inevitable the wrong attitude. It's not an organic evolution of the game rules. One of the unique points about Cardfight is that up to now, there hasn't been a real "restricted" list. The game balance was praised for this reason, and I think my sister described it best when she asked me why these cards weren't just not printed in the first place. The institution of heavy restrictions means that in the future, we could be headed towards a similar situation to the previous Big 3 card games, where you're playing an entirely different game every four months because of the new restricted list or set rotation. And it's doubtful that the new list won't eventually come to the EN scene, considering that the Barcgal restriction that for so long seemed to not be coming did finally enter into our format. Would we be complaining if the list were instead;

    • Majesty Lord Blaster
    • Wingal Brave
    • Lizard Soldier Conroe
    • Dragonic Overlord The End
    While on one hand it's good that Bushi pays attention to the pro scene, on the other I can't rationalize sacrificing the average fighters that are doing this for fun as the right way to go about it. These restrictions apply at the shop level, so it's not like they're unaffected by the restricted list. And if shops don't obey the restricted list so that these players can participate, that only goes further to highlight the sentiment of it as illegitimate. My deck isn't personally affected by this, but I don't like the idea of my friends eventually being excluded from using the decks that they put so much time and money into designing, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent for the future of the game to have a large number of cards restricted. What if designers start designing cards intending for them being restricted? Cardfight doesn't have an "item" or "magic" card mechanic like other games, something like Pokemon's ACE SPECs wouldn't fly the same way here. Having a restricted list also makes it difficult for new players to get into the game; Yu-Gi-Oh! by comparison is very difficult to get into because kids and adults alike don't enjoy the bureaucracy of having to memorize an everchanging lineup of illegal cards to know what of their collection is permitted in a deck. From my perspective, it's a Pandora's box that we'd be better off having not opened.

    This isn't something that I think is worth quitting the game over, but it's discouraging, you know?

    HiveNet wrote:Not a shock that this was coming. However, I think it's
    a trial thing personally. The logic some players are putting to it are
    atributting it to a letter sent by someone complaining about Majesty
    Lord Blaster, DOTE and PBO being to powerful and that they should be
    changed for the english edition.

    I'd like to clarify with some details about this particular point before I stop, that someone is Alice, a very prolific cardfighter and writer who's been influencing the English side of the game. It's not just one letter that she wrote--Alice created a forum thread to try and convince as many people as possible to fill out a form letter and send it to Bushiroad's EN facilities, and as I recall Bushi eventually responded, saying that they forwarded the letters to the "relevant department." Currently it's unknown if this carried a concrete impact since it could be a typical company dismissal reply and if Bushi modified those cards then they'd have to modify all future crossrides, but that's the basic summary of what went down with this. It seems unlikely that her letters were the motivation behind the list though, because Bushiroad's English and Japanese divisions are managed separately and the list coincided with Eboshida Hiromi's The End deck taking the junior national title while Nakamura Seishirou's (no relation to the Nakamura Seishirou from the Winter tournaments, different kanji same reading) Majesty Lord deck became the senior national one. Alice also asked for Phantom Blaster Overlord to be restricted or modified, and that being the one deck that didn't make it to the senior or junior finals, nothing's happened to it.

    My impression is that PBO's not going to get hit, since it's not as frightening per se as Ji Enddo and MLB.

    You're honestly right about Tsuku and Alfred though. I've been spending a lot of today actually musing over these changes, and in truth, even if the deck was headed to Japan, this was, in general, a reaction to BT05's continued dominance that seemed to overstep its boundaries by hitting stuff like the aforementioned cards in an effort to rebalance "the top four decks in the meta."

    In reality, I've slowly started to change my mind about the Alfred ban. As prominent as Alfred Paladins is, it seems a bit preemptive to take the deck that was a counter to the crossrides out of the picture. That doesn't necessarily guarantee that Alfred will do as well against the decks coming out BT09-onward. Same for Tsuku.

    I'm sure at this point that, regardless of how hilarious the comments are, Alfred and Tsuku's bans will find some sort of edits coming their way, based on what Doctor O's telling us.
    Ashiok
    Ashiok
    Moderators
    Moderators


    Posts : 3549
    Rep : 31
    Join date : 2012-04-04
    Age : 28
    Location : A flying tea saucer.

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Ashiok Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:32 am

    I pretty much agree with everything Touya said except for the point about the banlist plausibly being Wingal Brave, MLB, Conroe and DOTE.

    Bushi seem to be reacting very irrationally to there being these top decks that they designed to be the top decks, and it's not healthy for the game at all, especially if the earlier mentioned plausible philosophy being "The deck only ran 4 Grade 3s which is intuitively wrong for the game."

    Instead of just outright banning the best decks, just allow them to be the best decks. They're not grossly overpowered. Personally, I never sit the opposite side of DOTE of MLB and think "Oh, it's this deck again, better scoop up my cards." They actually take a well-skilled pilot to play optimally and an even better build to play out perfectly every game, to the point where smart plays and almost any clan can feasibly best them. That's not the sign of a "broken" deck in the slightest.

    They also don't seem to be withholding any of the power creep they're so against. Did they seriously announce these changes after just spoiling Glorious Maelstrom? Under what pretences did they think they'd make sense compared to what is likely going to be the strongest cross-ride and the actual groan-inducer of the format. It makes no sense to ban MLB and DOTE (Tsuku and Alfred don't even compare, honestly) right before releasing such a f***-up of card design, that rivals them without even trying, let alone being far stronger than both Tsuku and Alfred offensively, heck it makes Silent Tom look tame.

    What they should've done is wait for the game to evolve from BT09/10 and then decide whether certain decks are too powerful, and then realise "Hey, we can have a tier 1 dominated by these certain decks." There's a reason every other game lets that happen. It's because it's natural for there to be best decks in card games by sheer virtue of how they're designed. Trying to ban tier 1 over and over again (especially in the manner Bushiroad are doing it, I mean seriously you can only have 2 of x cards in your deck? Why not just limit each card to 1 or something?) just leads to confusion and people lack faith in the game itself.

    Eh, pretty much said everything I wanted to.
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member


    Posts : 1116
    Rep : 4
    Join date : 2012-05-01
    Age : 30
    Location : Above your garage.

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:54 pm

    Actually, Chris, the philosophy is that decks that have kept other decks from seeing any kind of use/relevance in tournaments stagnates the game on a competitive level.

    Let's face it. We could all play casual and let people control the competitive scene, but at some point or another, that shit's going to affect us.
    Touya
    Touya
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member


    Posts : 128
    Rep : 16
    Join date : 2012-07-25
    Age : 31
    Location : Cincinnati

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Touya Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:45 am

    So remember how this list was supposed to stop people from running 4 grade 3s?

    It didn't work.

    Osaka Regional Decklist:
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member


    Posts : 1116
    Rep : 4
    Join date : 2012-05-01
    Age : 30
    Location : Above your garage.

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:59 am

    Touya wrote:So remember how this list was supposed to stop people from running 4 grade 3s?

    It didn't work.

    Osaka Regional Decklist:

    ...Dear god, that seriously works?

    Ugh...and then we lose SSD for some godforsaken reason...
    Lequier
    Lequier
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member


    Posts : 115
    Rep : 5
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Location : United Kingdom

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Lequier Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:21 pm

    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:
    Touya wrote:So remember how this list was supposed to stop people from running 4 grade 3s?

    It didn't work.

    Osaka Regional Decklist:

    ...Dear god, that seriously works?

    Ugh...and then we lose SSD for some godforsaken reason...

    No. They'll just have to ban Wingal Brave because that's obviously the problem here.
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member


    Posts : 1116
    Rep : 4
    Join date : 2012-05-01
    Age : 30
    Location : Above your garage.

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:33 am

    Oh my Amaterasu! wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:
    Touya wrote:So remember how this list was supposed to stop people from running 4 grade 3s?

    It didn't work.

    Osaka Regional Decklist:

    ...Dear god, that seriously works?

    Ugh...and then we lose SSD for some godforsaken reason...

    No. They'll just have to ban Wingal Brave because that's obviously the problem here.

    They already limited Brave in the original list, though. And I don't see, at the moment, why it's the problem in this deck.
    Touya
    Touya
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member


    Posts : 128
    Rep : 16
    Join date : 2012-07-25
    Age : 31
    Location : Cincinnati

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Touya Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:30 am

    To give an update on the situation, Tokyo happened eleven days after the Osaka but reports didn't go out until the 12th so communication between those that went to Osaka and those that went to Tokyo was at a minimum. One four-card Blaster deck did show up in the ranks, so with at least three unique instances of it topping we're probably gonna see this rise in popularity among people who don't jump to Jewel Knights, but even more interesting is this Murakumo deck;

    Tokyo Regional Decklist:

    Not to derail the thread with trio fight talk or anything, but it's pretty interesting that this is all coming out of the new restricted format. People are deliberately trying to be the next Tsukuyomi.
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member


    Posts : 1116
    Rep : 4
    Join date : 2012-05-01
    Age : 30
    Location : Above your garage.

    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:10 am

    That's...a little more interesting.

    In truth, I'm curious as to whether people are perhaps criticizing the old numbers of 7/8 g3s in an attempt to demonstrate the potency of ride chains along with their minor support, specifically to avoid misriding (as risky as it is to play that way). These have basically shown how remotely successful that concept appears to be, and capitalizes on having lots of guard/search options for the sake of maintaining that 12-crit beat.

    My second interest is in how Bushi's going to respond to all this...do they slap the children for backtalking, or do they reconsider their changes?...

    Sponsored content


    Deck Restrictions - Page 3 Empty Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun May 19, 2024 7:57 pm