Second Sunrise

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    Second Sunrise

    Post by Rodrigo on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:57 am



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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Dae of Judgment on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:46 am

    .-. Shut up. I loved eggs as a deck. It was a beautiful deck and something I believe modern needed. Combo is getting the hit and that hurts me a lot. Plus this was an engine deck, really, really important to note that. I think, to keep the deck alive, it should have been Reshape getting the banhammer. Time restrains, my favorite deck is now gone in modern, welp, Tezzeret Affinity still exists.

    No, but for people, time restrain was a major issue. I used to always hit around time or even more. I stayed until 1 am at an FNM just because of my deck, I felt exhausted that late in the morning passed what I am used to. It was a deck that took the entire time of a tournament to go over passed a few hours. Even Kibler, against Holiday, left in the middle of his game just to go to the bathroom and Holiday wasn't even close to ending it.

    If you guys watch Friday Night Magic, the short series of MtG, then in one of them, the elaborated on the time it takes to even a couple of hours if you are just starting out with the deck. Just to get used to the deck, I had to solitaire it a bunch and, though worth it, pushed me over the edge sometimes when it took more than 30 minutes to combo and half of that was just shuffling. No matter how much I regret investing, I still love the deck and will play it in Multiplayer or casual games. The cards are still gorgeous and outside of the shocklands, it wasn't too much of an investment for me.

    Rest in Peace, Eggs.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:05 pm

    HAHAHAHA GOOD RIDDANCE EGGS.

    Also >Combo getting the axe

    >Splinter Twin
    >RG Tron
    >Infect
    >Scapeshift
    >Kiki-Pod
    >Melira Pod
    >Living End


    Pretty sure combo's still a bloody big thing, and the huge variety of combo decks is what makes modern appear worse and worse, because the way to keep combo under control is... well, control. But control can't physically pack answers to every single combo deck, and there's no catch-alls like Force of Will in the format, or cheap finishers like Jace, TMS.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Pack Rat on Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:58 pm

    I must say, I laughed heavily when I saw this announced.
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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Dae of Judgment on Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:58 pm

    I meant specifically engine combo decks. Not combo in general.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:05 pm

    So, entirely uninteractive decks?

    I fail to see how this is at all bad for the format.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Dae of Judgment on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:06 pm

    When did I ever say it was bad for a format?


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:16 pm

    The tone your initial post gave off made it seem that way.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Dae of Judgment on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:28 pm

    Oh, well, then I apologize. I don't like it not being in modern, but it would be better for it in the long run with time strains on the tournaments and regular FNMs anyways.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:54 pm

    lol the comments I've seen on Salvation regarding this ban.

    It was clearly coming the moment Kibler walked away from the table against two different instances of Breakfast. There is no way they weren't going to hit the combo, because even though it isn't 100% uninteractable (you still have to hit the combo), it was entirely too consistent for what it was worth, and Nate Holiday's version proved that point.

    In regards to the loss of combos...lol Scapeshift, lol Melira Pod, lol Kiki-Pod, lol a lot of decks that aren't just midrange variants or Zoo. Combos that become too consistent are likely to be hit, like Eggs definitely was. These are at least ones you can interact with/stop before they happen.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:18 pm

    I think the best part about Eggs' ban is that it makes Pod better again, and Pod is actually the coolest engine deck to see work, and doesn't combo until turn 5/6/7 consistently. Sure, it has some turn 4 wins, but I'd honestly be cool with that being the face of modern, and I don't even like creatures. The problem pod's had is that Eggs has a bloody good matchup against it since it's a turn faster.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:30 pm

    Kiki-Pod's already top of the meta, it's just that Eggs made the list invalid.

    I'm actually more willing to bother with building stuff like Scapeshift thanks to this ban.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Dae of Judgment on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:43 pm

    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:lol the comments I've seen on Salvation regarding this ban.

    It was clearly coming the moment Kibler walked away from the table against two different instances of Breakfast. There is no way they weren't going to hit the combo, because even though it isn't 100% uninteractable (you still have to hit the combo), it was entirely too consistent for what it was worth, and Nate Holiday's version proved that point.

    In regards to the loss of combos...lol Scapeshift, lol Melira Pod, lol Kiki-Pod, lol a lot of decks that aren't just midrange variants or Zoo. Combos that become too consistent are likely to be hit, like Eggs definitely was. These are at least ones you can interact with/stop before they happen.

    But you seem to not know why it was banned. It wasn't because it was too consistent, because of its power level or anything like that. Turns would take up to 10 minutes. Just because a pro-player left, who I still highly respect even if he acted rude and shit, left doesn't mean that a deck is getting the hit. He acted disrespectfully in the tournament and at least should have waited. Funny to see, kind of dickish though. The deck is now dead because it would take too long to combo off and push tournaments off the edge.

    A deck would stop you guys from making another deck? It wasn't topping anything or causing aching trouble being a dominant deck. Sure it would be see a lot, but how many of those players actually practiced with the deck enough to be that good at it?

    Pod was always a good deck, it got plenty of top 8s. One bad matchup usually didn't it get off of the consistent play a lot.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:26 am

    Skyfall wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:lol the comments I've seen on Salvation regarding this ban.

    It was clearly coming the moment Kibler walked away from the table against two different instances of Breakfast. There is no way they weren't going to hit the combo, because even though it isn't 100% uninteractable (you still have to hit the combo), it was entirely too consistent for what it was worth, and Nate Holiday's version proved that point.

    In regards to the loss of combos...lol Scapeshift, lol Melira Pod, lol Kiki-Pod, lol a lot of decks that aren't just midrange variants or Zoo. Combos that become too consistent are likely to be hit, like Eggs definitely was. These are at least ones you can interact with/stop before they happen.

    But you seem to not know why it was banned. It wasn't because it was too consistent, because of its power level or anything like that. Turns would take up to 10 minutes. Just because a pro-player left, who I still highly respect even if he acted rude and shit, left doesn't mean that a deck is getting the hit. He acted disrespectfully in the tournament and at least should have waited. Funny to see, kind of dickish though. The deck is now dead because it would take too long to combo off and push tournaments off the edge.

    A deck would stop you guys from making another deck? It wasn't topping anything or causing aching trouble being a dominant deck. Sure it would be see a lot, but how many of those players actually practiced with the deck enough to be that good at it?

    Pod was always a good deck, it got plenty of top 8s. One bad matchup usually didn't it get off of the consistent play a lot.

    It's not that it was consistent in a sense that you always hit the combo. It's consistent in the fact that once the combo is hit, it simply does not matter; you are more than likely done, because your opponent will continue to loop. It was like when Dragon Exodia actually worked; it's not fun to play against in any shape or form, and enough people started playing the deck and /succeeding/ that it became toxic for the environment.

    Sure, some decks were able to interact with it /before/ the loop begins, but when you continually loop for 20 minutes to kill someone and you have to wait to see if they do it, you may as well just write into the text of the card "gg, next round."

    I would be more than willing to defend the deck if it were something like Scapeshift or Twin where the combo is much more interactable, because then, it would be a ban that would be highly questionable. But based on how it resulted in most games it went off, it was making decent players reconsider even playing in the format.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Jordan, Lich Lord on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:30 am

    We all saw this coming, the game took too long with it.

    Wish I had tried it just once before this though Smile


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Dae of Judgment on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:44 am

    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:
    Skyfall wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:lol the comments I've seen on Salvation regarding this ban.

    It was clearly coming the moment Kibler walked away from the table against two different instances of Breakfast. There is no way they weren't going to hit the combo, because even though it isn't 100% uninteractable (you still have to hit the combo), it was entirely too consistent for what it was worth, and Nate Holiday's version proved that point.

    In regards to the loss of combos...lol Scapeshift, lol Melira Pod, lol Kiki-Pod, lol a lot of decks that aren't just midrange variants or Zoo. Combos that become too consistent are likely to be hit, like Eggs definitely was. These are at least ones you can interact with/stop before they happen.

    But you seem to not know why it was banned. It wasn't because it was too consistent, because of its power level or anything like that. Turns would take up to 10 minutes. Just because a pro-player left, who I still highly respect even if he acted rude and shit, left doesn't mean that a deck is getting the hit. He acted disrespectfully in the tournament and at least should have waited. Funny to see, kind of dickish though. The deck is now dead because it would take too long to combo off and push tournaments off the edge.

    A deck would stop you guys from making another deck? It wasn't topping anything or causing aching trouble being a dominant deck. Sure it would be see a lot, but how many of those players actually practiced with the deck enough to be that good at it?

    Pod was always a good deck, it got plenty of top 8s. One bad matchup usually didn't it get off of the consistent play a lot.

    It's not that it was consistent in a sense that you always hit the combo. It's consistent in the fact that once the combo is hit, it simply does not matter; you are more than likely done, because your opponent will continue to loop. It was like when Dragon Exodia actually worked; it's not fun to play against in any shape or form, and enough people started playing the deck and /succeeding/ that it became toxic for the environment.

    Sure, some decks were able to interact with it /before/ the loop begins, but when you continually loop for 20 minutes to kill someone and you have to wait to see if they do it, you may as well just write into the text of the card "gg, next round."

    I would be more than willing to defend the deck if it were something like Scapeshift or Twin where the combo is much more interactable, because then, it would be a ban that would be highly questionable. But based on how it resulted in most games it went off, it was making decent players reconsider even playing in the format.
    What exactly is your argument? There are faster ways of playing the deck just for MTGO involving Krark-Clan Ironworks where the combo would take 10 minutes less than it did in paper. Most of the people playing the deck were just that slow that it pushed the game over time. Those people needed more practice before it, it is there time. It wasn't the amount of people that make the deck push time strains, but the amount of bad people taking it to in event. Playing against wasn't fun, but that is not why it was bed.

    Interactivity is what caused people to hate the deck and some to love it. I took more than just tapping lands to play a card. The entire deck was used to set up a combo, using the library to the point where almost no cards were in it so that Twincast, Silence, Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward were able to get right into the hand when you were to draw a card.

    The ban wouldn't be questionable ever. You are always given why the ban is chosen and whatnot. What is questionable is Wizards' decision as to why they banned a card. I am not defending the deck because it shouldn't be banned. I agree 100% to the ban. I am arguing that it wasn't banned because of power-level or interactivity issues. It was banned for time issues in the tournament throughout the day. Too many people were going over time, making the tournament itself delayed. Sometimes by several hours. If I was in a PTQ or GP, I would want to go right when it was over, but I would like to stay to see the ending. Wasting too much time on one round would delay the rest of the tournament.


    Last edited by Skyfall on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:04 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Dae of Judgment on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:44 am

    Jordan, Lich Lord wrote:We all saw this coming, the game took too long with it.

    Wish I had tried it just once before this though Smile
    You do know that it is not banned yet, right?


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Jordan, Lich Lord on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:16 am

    Really?

    To cockatrice! Smile


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:48 am

    Skyfall wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:
    Skyfall wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:lol the comments I've seen on Salvation regarding this ban.

    It was clearly coming the moment Kibler walked away from the table against two different instances of Breakfast. There is no way they weren't going to hit the combo, because even though it isn't 100% uninteractable (you still have to hit the combo), it was entirely too consistent for what it was worth, and Nate Holiday's version proved that point.

    In regards to the loss of combos...lol Scapeshift, lol Melira Pod, lol Kiki-Pod, lol a lot of decks that aren't just midrange variants or Zoo. Combos that become too consistent are likely to be hit, like Eggs definitely was. These are at least ones you can interact with/stop before they happen.

    But you seem to not know why it was banned. It wasn't because it was too consistent, because of its power level or anything like that. Turns would take up to 10 minutes. Just because a pro-player left, who I still highly respect even if he acted rude and shit, left doesn't mean that a deck is getting the hit. He acted disrespectfully in the tournament and at least should have waited. Funny to see, kind of dickish though. The deck is now dead because it would take too long to combo off and push tournaments off the edge.

    A deck would stop you guys from making another deck? It wasn't topping anything or causing aching trouble being a dominant deck. Sure it would be see a lot, but how many of those players actually practiced with the deck enough to be that good at it?

    Pod was always a good deck, it got plenty of top 8s. One bad matchup usually didn't it get off of the consistent play a lot.

    It's not that it was consistent in a sense that you always hit the combo. It's consistent in the fact that once the combo is hit, it simply does not matter; you are more than likely done, because your opponent will continue to loop. It was like when Dragon Exodia actually worked; it's not fun to play against in any shape or form, and enough people started playing the deck and /succeeding/ that it became toxic for the environment.

    Sure, some decks were able to interact with it /before/ the loop begins, but when you continually loop for 20 minutes to kill someone and you have to wait to see if they do it, you may as well just write into the text of the card "gg, next round."

    I would be more than willing to defend the deck if it were something like Scapeshift or Twin where the combo is much more interactable, because then, it would be a ban that would be highly questionable. But based on how it resulted in most games it went off, it was making decent players reconsider even playing in the format.
    What exactly is your argument? There are faster ways of playing the deck just for MTGO involving Krark-Clan Ironworks where the combo would take 10 minutes less than it did in paper. Most of the people playing the deck were just that slow that it pushed the game over time. Those people needed more practice before it, it is there time. It wasn't the amount of people that make the deck push time strains, but the amount of bad people taking it to in event. Playing against wasn't fun, but that is not why it was bed.

    Interactivity is what caused people to hate the deck and some to love it. I took more than just tapping lands to play a card. The entire deck was used to set up a combo, using the library to the point where almost no cards were in it so that Twincast, Silence, Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward were able to get right into the hand when you were to draw a card.

    The ban wouldn't be questionable ever. You are always given why the ban is chosen and whatnot. What is questionable is Wizards' decision as to why they banned a card. I am not defending the deck because it shouldn't be banned. I agree 100% to the ban. I am arguing that it wasn't banned because of power-level or interactivity issues. It was banned for time issues in the tournament throughout the day. Too many people were going over time, making the tournament itself delayed. Sometimes by several hours. If I was in a PTQ or GP, I would want to go right when it was over, but I would like to stay to see the ending. Wasting too much time on one round would delay the rest of the tournament.

    I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.

    When your entire environment picks up a deck and it results in the game becoming the Prophecy +9 in YGO, where most other plays become completely unnecessary, and there's no ability to have any sort of general response to the actions, it is going to force people out of a format, even if they win post-sideboard, because nobody is going to want to sit through a 20-minute finish that they can't interfere with in any shape or form.

    Sunrise was the prime choice because Faith's Reward lets Eggs try to still be a deck, but at a slower pace, "killing" the deck for a lot of players who abused it for a specific turn count finish. And doing so is the right thing because it doesn't shaft combos at all, but it shafts something that simply should not be allowed to happen in any sort of card game.

    On a side note, shame on Konami not paying any attention to the +9 Prophecy interactions, even if they essentially do nothing.

    EDIT: I just noticed you're arguing that it's not an interaction issue. I'd say 67% of players who ended up siding in everything just to counteract the deck at all costs of avoiding a F6 call of their own would disagree.


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    Re: Second Sunrise

    Post by Dae of Judgment on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:58 am

    I know what you are saying. The deck allowed for only a few moments on people interacting with it. That is a problem for the players. Some players would sac a fetch land just to do something while the opponent was going off. Some would just play with dice, keeping track of the mana added for the egg's player. That has nothing to do with why it is banned.

    I don't care what those 67% of players were doing. If that is there argument, they are arguing the wrong thing. They shouldn't even be arguing. They reason why the deck was banned was because of time strains on tournaments.

    "In a large tournament, such as a Grand Prix, when time for the round expires, players are given five additional turns to complete their game. Usually, this takes a few minutes to conclude the rest of the games. However, a player playing Eggs might have a fifteen-minute turn during the additional turns, delaying the start of the next round by ten minutes or more (beyond the next-longest match). Over the course of a day, this can mean an extra hour of waiting for everyone else in the tournament." - WotC

    They even went into details about it completely destroying a tournament by those extra hours. People outside would want to leave. A deck making a tournament last hours and delaying it is the problem to why it was banned. I don't care about why people would end up hating it. Usually because of the interactivity, people would begin hating it, not that it would get banned.


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