Deck Restrictions51.85

    Deck Restrictions

    Share

    Johnny
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1459
    Rep: -1
    Join date: 2012-04-07
    Age: 21
    Location: Rahway, New Jersey

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Johnny on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:15 pm

    And then kagero gets a Grade 3 searcher.

    Which they can't do much with since only 2 DOTE lol.


    _________________
    The great Hero, Golden Ryan! I will make the world kiss my boots, remember this.

    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1116
    Rep: 4
    Join date: 2012-05-01
    Age: 20
    Location: Above your garage.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:18 pm

    Even still, MLB can still play at one, albeit they get slammed if Brave gets guarded, and Japan has a Tsuku list that, in theory, is going to rock (although it really just looks like they added Tsuku to Goddess.dek). And Pendragon makes Royals have some kind of semi-viable option.

    As the dust settles, this list looks completely fine.


    _________________

    Rodrigo
    Admin
    Admin

    Posts: 5428
    Rep: 75
    Join date: 2012-04-03
    Age: 21
    Location: Maringá - Paraná - Brazil

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Rodrigo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:22 pm

    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:With this list, the only deck that gets raped is DOTE.

    How about Alfred Paladins?


    _________________

    Johnny
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1459
    Rep: -1
    Join date: 2012-04-07
    Age: 21
    Location: Rahway, New Jersey

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Johnny on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:23 pm

    Alfred's still going to go stronk. Run Bleugal or Drangal, you've got yourself the soul build-up through Drangal not moving and just using it to nab your Grade 1 Superior Ride.

    Basically go back to how BT03 RP was played, just don't use the Grade 2 Galahad.


    _________________
    The great Hero, Golden Ryan! I will make the world kiss my boots, remember this.

    Ashiok
    Moderators
    Moderators

    Posts: 3540
    Rep: 31
    Join date: 2012-04-04
    Age: 19
    Location: A flying tea saucer.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Ashiok on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:24 pm

    So, exactly what I said, Tsuku is dead.

    I never said anything about CEO being dead.


    _________________
    Just call me Chris


    "It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else."

    Ruby
    Admin
    Admin

    Posts: 2627
    Rep: 17
    Join date: 2012-04-03
    Age: 18

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Ruby on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:24 pm

    Maelstrom Wanderer wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:With this list, the only deck that gets raped is DOTE.

    How about Alfred Paladins?

    Pendragon has been mentioned at least six times now man.


    _________________


    "You can't pay back what you owe with money!!"


    Johnny
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1459
    Rep: -1
    Join date: 2012-04-07
    Age: 21
    Location: Rahway, New Jersey

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Johnny on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:24 pm

    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:Even still, MLB can still play at one, albeit they get slammed if Brave gets guarded, and Japan has a Tsuku list that, in theory, is going to rock (although it really just looks like they added Tsuku to Goddess.dek). And Pendragon makes Royals have some kind of semi-viable option.

    As the dust settles, this list looks completely fine.

    Its funny because I posted that list just recently, lol.


    _________________
    The great Hero, Golden Ryan! I will make the world kiss my boots, remember this.

    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1116
    Rep: 4
    Join date: 2012-05-01
    Age: 20
    Location: Above your garage.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:03 pm

    Johnny wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:Even still, MLB can still play at one, albeit they get slammed if Brave gets guarded, and Japan has a Tsuku list that, in theory, is going to rock (although it really just looks like they added Tsuku to Goddess.dek). And Pendragon makes Royals have some kind of semi-viable option.

    As the dust settles, this list looks completely fine.

    Its funny because I posted that list just recently, lol.

    Seems like it works, regardless. I'll test it when I'm not swamped with paperwork.

    If Tsuku's getting used in the same kind of deck she was in before, but with CEO as the cover option, I don't really see how that defines her as dead. Sure, you can't use her as the /only/ thing, but it's not like the card's entirely useless.

    Yuzuru Otonashi
    Experienced Member
    Experienced Member

    Posts: 645
    Rep: 18
    Join date: 2012-04-15
    Age: 21
    Location: The Moon

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Yuzuru Otonashi on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:22 pm

    It's like this-

    Let's say Hieratics were already hit, but Gishki were not. Gishki use Hieratics as an engine, but in no way are they Hieratics. It's a hybrid deck, not Hieratic.dek. Hieratics are pretty damn dead, but that doesn't mean they don't have a niche outside to be used by other decks that can benefit from using them as an engine.


    _________________

    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1116
    Rep: 4
    Join date: 2012-05-01
    Age: 20
    Location: Above your garage.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:36 pm

    Yuzuru Otonashi wrote:It's like this-

    Let's say Hieratics were already hit, but Gishki were not. Gishki use Hieratics as an engine, but in no way are they Hieratics. It's a hybrid deck, not Hieratic.dek. Hieratics are pretty damn dead, but that doesn't mean they don't have a niche outside to be used by other decks that can benefit from using them as an engine.

    Exactly.

    Yuzuru Otonashi
    Experienced Member
    Experienced Member

    Posts: 645
    Rep: 18
    Join date: 2012-04-15
    Age: 21
    Location: The Moon

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Yuzuru Otonashi on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:49 pm

    Thus, Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, like Chris said. The line can still be used as an Engine for somewhat consistent, powerful, +0 riding, with a hopeful +2 at the end of it, but that's all it is now.

    tl;dr Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, Tsukuyomi the Engine is still thinking it can.


    _________________

    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1116
    Rep: 4
    Join date: 2012-05-01
    Age: 20
    Location: Above your garage.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:56 am

    Yuzuru Otonashi wrote:Thus, Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, like Chris said. The line can still be used as an Engine for somewhat consistent, powerful, +0 riding, with a hopeful +2 at the end of it, but that's all it is now.

    tl;dr Tsukuyomi.dek is dead, Tsukuyomi the Engine is still thinking it can.

    As is the Tsukuyomi concept, with that decklist.

    On another laughable community note, never go to Facebook for anything ever.

    Rodrigo
    Admin
    Admin

    Posts: 5428
    Rep: 75
    Join date: 2012-04-03
    Age: 21
    Location: Maringá - Paraná - Brazil

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Rodrigo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:17 am

    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:On another laughable community note, never go to Facebook for anything ever.

    Like Tumblr.

    Common knowledge people, always keep it in mind.

    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1116
    Rep: 4
    Join date: 2012-05-01
    Age: 20
    Location: Above your garage.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:18 am

    CDDRodrigo wrote:
    Kyousuke Kousaka wrote:On another laughable community note, never go to Facebook for anything ever.

    Like Tumblr.

    Common knowledge people, always keep it in mind.

    Touya's from Tumblr. I don't think you want to go that route, mate.

    Jordan, Lich Lord
    Legendary Member
    Legendary Member

    Posts: 8127
    Rep: 44
    Join date: 2012-04-05
    Age: 18

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Jordan, Lich Lord on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:07 am

    Facebooks not bad if you ignore idiots. Which means dont ever go to a public page Smile

    And stay away from the games that will take up a year of your life before you realize you're not really doing anything.


    _________________
    Formerly-Wi Fi Master Jordan
    Garazza wrote:You seem to be a jack of all trades. You can discuss most anything and play most card games


    Touya
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member

    Posts: 128
    Rep: 16
    Join date: 2012-07-25
    Age: 21
    Location: Cincinnati

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Touya on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:33 am

    I...have and had a lot of things to say about the restricted list, but as most of them have gone up on other sites already it just feels like I'm repeating myself.

    The new model for Tsukuyomi does work as Amaterasu support if you want CEO's megablast as an option, since Inaba ties back to both Tsuku and the new Goddess crossride, but if you're looking to focus solely on Goddess of the Sun then you might instead accept LuLu as a default FVG because of her guaranteed +2 versus Ichibyoshi's sometimes-on sometimes-off increase in advantage. The Tsukuyomi fusion feels more coherent as a strategy, but I think we'd need to try mirror match testing on whether LuLu's guaranteed extra card and access to Silent Tom or Godhawk-Tsuku's soul support with Tagitsuhime is more beneficial to the Goddess deck.

    I feel that the fact that Barcgal and his restriction was accepted without controversy compared to the various reactions to the new list does show that this is not necessarily a needed adjustment to the game. How many of us were calling out for Tsukuyomi and Alfred to be restricted before this? Has anyone ever actually called these two cards broken? I don't think that being able to run Tsuku at four is a bad thing, Tanaka-type decks are innovation at work and this strategy keeps an old deck contemporary. The fact that every first-place national championship deck has now been made unusable...the way that this new list works, it seems that Bushiroad is just going to restrict whatever makes it to the championship finals from now on, to make it impossible for any deck from a previous year to top in the following ones.

    I consider assuming a massive, ever-changing restricted list to be inevitable the wrong attitude. It's not an organic evolution of the game rules. One of the unique points about Cardfight is that up to now, there hasn't been a real "restricted" list. The game balance was praised for this reason, and I think my sister described it best when she asked me why these cards weren't just not printed in the first place. The institution of heavy restrictions means that in the future, we could be headed towards a similar situation to the previous Big 3 card games, where you're playing an entirely different game every four months because of the new restricted list or set rotation. And it's doubtful that the new list won't eventually come to the EN scene, considering that the Barcgal restriction that for so long seemed to not be coming did finally enter into our format. Would we be complaining if the list were instead;

    • Majesty Lord Blaster
    • Wingal Brave
    • Lizard Soldier Conroe
    • Dragonic Overlord The End
    While on one hand it's good that Bushi pays attention to the pro scene, on the other I can't rationalize sacrificing the average fighters that are doing this for fun as the right way to go about it. These restrictions apply at the shop level, so it's not like they're unaffected by the restricted list. And if shops don't obey the restricted list so that these players can participate, that only goes further to highlight the sentiment of it as illegitimate. My deck isn't personally affected by this, but I don't like the idea of my friends eventually being excluded from using the decks that they put so much time and money into designing, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent for the future of the game to have a large number of cards restricted. What if designers start designing cards intending for them being restricted? Cardfight doesn't have an "item" or "magic" card mechanic like other games, something like Pokemon's ACE SPECs wouldn't fly the same way here. Having a restricted list also makes it difficult for new players to get into the game; Yu-Gi-Oh! by comparison is very difficult to get into because kids and adults alike don't enjoy the bureaucracy of having to memorize an everchanging lineup of illegal cards to know what of their collection is permitted in a deck. From my perspective, it's a Pandora's box that we'd be better off having not opened.

    This isn't something that I think is worth quitting the game over, but it's discouraging, you know?

    HiveNet wrote:Not a shock that this was coming. However, I think it's
    a trial thing personally. The logic some players are putting to it are
    atributting it to a letter sent by someone complaining about Majesty
    Lord Blaster, DOTE and PBO being to powerful and that they should be
    changed for the english edition.

    I'd like to clarify with some details about this particular point before I stop, that someone is Alice, a very prolific cardfighter and writer who's been influencing the English side of the game. It's not just one letter that she wrote--Alice created a forum thread to try and convince as many people as possible to fill out a form letter and send it to Bushiroad's EN facilities, and as I recall Bushi eventually responded, saying that they forwarded the letters to the "relevant department." Currently it's unknown if this carried a concrete impact since it could be a typical company dismissal reply and if Bushi modified those cards then they'd have to modify all future crossrides, but that's the basic summary of what went down with this. It seems unlikely that her letters were the motivation behind the list though, because Bushiroad's English and Japanese divisions are managed separately and the list coincided with Eboshida Hiromi's The End deck taking the junior national title while Nakamura Seishirou's (no relation to the Nakamura Seishirou from the Winter tournaments, different kanji same reading) Majesty Lord deck became the senior national one. Alice also asked for Phantom Blaster Overlord to be restricted or modified, and that being the one deck that didn't make it to the senior or junior finals, nothing's happened to it.

    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1116
    Rep: 4
    Join date: 2012-05-01
    Age: 20
    Location: Above your garage.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:02 am

    Touya wrote:I...have and had a lot of things to say about the restricted list, but as most of them have gone up on other sites already it just feels like I'm repeating myself.

    The new model for Tsukuyomi does work as Amaterasu support if you want CEO's megablast as an option, since Inaba ties back to both Tsuku and the new Goddess crossride, but if you're looking to focus solely on Goddess of the Sun then you might instead accept LuLu as a default FVG because of her guaranteed +2 versus Ichibyoshi's sometimes-on sometimes-off increase in advantage. The Tsukuyomi fusion feels more coherent as a strategy, but I think we'd need to try mirror match testing on whether LuLu's guaranteed extra card and access to Silent Tom or Godhawk-Tsuku's soul support with Tagitsuhime is more beneficial to the Goddess deck.

    I feel that the fact that Barcgal and his restriction was accepted without controversy compared to the various reactions to the new list does show that this is not necessarily a needed adjustment to the game. How many of us were calling out for Tsukuyomi and Alfred to be restricted before this? Has anyone ever actually called these two cards broken? I don't think that being able to run Tsuku at four is a bad thing, Tanaka-type decks are innovation at work and this strategy keeps an old deck contemporary. The fact that every first-place national championship deck has now been made unusable...the way that this new list works, it seems that Bushiroad is just going to restrict whatever makes it to the championship finals from now on, to make it impossible for any deck from a previous year to top in the following ones.

    I consider assuming a massive, ever-changing restricted list to be inevitable the wrong attitude. It's not an organic evolution of the game rules. One of the unique points about Cardfight is that up to now, there hasn't been a real "restricted" list. The game balance was praised for this reason, and I think my sister described it best when she asked me why these cards weren't just not printed in the first place. The institution of heavy restrictions means that in the future, we could be headed towards a similar situation to the previous Big 3 card games, where you're playing an entirely different game every four months because of the new restricted list or set rotation. And it's doubtful that the new list won't eventually come to the EN scene, considering that the Barcgal restriction that for so long seemed to not be coming did finally enter into our format. Would we be complaining if the list were instead;

    • Majesty Lord Blaster
    • Wingal Brave
    • Lizard Soldier Conroe
    • Dragonic Overlord The End
    While on one hand it's good that Bushi pays attention to the pro scene, on the other I can't rationalize sacrificing the average fighters that are doing this for fun as the right way to go about it. These restrictions apply at the shop level, so it's not like they're unaffected by the restricted list. And if shops don't obey the restricted list so that these players can participate, that only goes further to highlight the sentiment of it as illegitimate. My deck isn't personally affected by this, but I don't like the idea of my friends eventually being excluded from using the decks that they put so much time and money into designing, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent for the future of the game to have a large number of cards restricted. What if designers start designing cards intending for them being restricted? Cardfight doesn't have an "item" or "magic" card mechanic like other games, something like Pokemon's ACE SPECs wouldn't fly the same way here. Having a restricted list also makes it difficult for new players to get into the game; Yu-Gi-Oh! by comparison is very difficult to get into because kids and adults alike don't enjoy the bureaucracy of having to memorize an everchanging lineup of illegal cards to know what of their collection is permitted in a deck. From my perspective, it's a Pandora's box that we'd be better off having not opened.

    This isn't something that I think is worth quitting the game over, but it's discouraging, you know?

    HiveNet wrote:Not a shock that this was coming. However, I think it's
    a trial thing personally. The logic some players are putting to it are
    atributting it to a letter sent by someone complaining about Majesty
    Lord Blaster, DOTE and PBO being to powerful and that they should be
    changed for the english edition.

    I'd like to clarify with some details about this particular point before I stop, that someone is Alice, a very prolific cardfighter and writer who's been influencing the English side of the game. It's not just one letter that she wrote--Alice created a forum thread to try and convince as many people as possible to fill out a form letter and send it to Bushiroad's EN facilities, and as I recall Bushi eventually responded, saying that they forwarded the letters to the "relevant department." Currently it's unknown if this carried a concrete impact since it could be a typical company dismissal reply and if Bushi modified those cards then they'd have to modify all future crossrides, but that's the basic summary of what went down with this. It seems unlikely that her letters were the motivation behind the list though, because Bushiroad's English and Japanese divisions are managed separately and the list coincided with Eboshida Hiromi's The End deck taking the junior national title while Nakamura Seishirou's (no relation to the Nakamura Seishirou from the Winter tournaments, different kanji same reading) Majesty Lord deck became the senior national one. Alice also asked for Phantom Blaster Overlord to be restricted or modified, and that being the one deck that didn't make it to the senior or junior finals, nothing's happened to it.

    My impression is that PBO's not going to get hit, since it's not as frightening per se as Ji Enddo and MLB.

    You're honestly right about Tsuku and Alfred though. I've been spending a lot of today actually musing over these changes, and in truth, even if the deck was headed to Japan, this was, in general, a reaction to BT05's continued dominance that seemed to overstep its boundaries by hitting stuff like the aforementioned cards in an effort to rebalance "the top four decks in the meta."

    In reality, I've slowly started to change my mind about the Alfred ban. As prominent as Alfred Paladins is, it seems a bit preemptive to take the deck that was a counter to the crossrides out of the picture. That doesn't necessarily guarantee that Alfred will do as well against the decks coming out BT09-onward. Same for Tsuku.

    I'm sure at this point that, regardless of how hilarious the comments are, Alfred and Tsuku's bans will find some sort of edits coming their way, based on what Doctor O's telling us.

    Ashiok
    Moderators
    Moderators

    Posts: 3540
    Rep: 31
    Join date: 2012-04-04
    Age: 19
    Location: A flying tea saucer.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Ashiok on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:32 am

    I pretty much agree with everything Touya said except for the point about the banlist plausibly being Wingal Brave, MLB, Conroe and DOTE.

    Bushi seem to be reacting very irrationally to there being these top decks that they designed to be the top decks, and it's not healthy for the game at all, especially if the earlier mentioned plausible philosophy being "The deck only ran 4 Grade 3s which is intuitively wrong for the game."

    Instead of just outright banning the best decks, just allow them to be the best decks. They're not grossly overpowered. Personally, I never sit the opposite side of DOTE of MLB and think "Oh, it's this deck again, better scoop up my cards." They actually take a well-skilled pilot to play optimally and an even better build to play out perfectly every game, to the point where smart plays and almost any clan can feasibly best them. That's not the sign of a "broken" deck in the slightest.

    They also don't seem to be withholding any of the power creep they're so against. Did they seriously announce these changes after just spoiling Glorious Maelstrom? Under what pretences did they think they'd make sense compared to what is likely going to be the strongest cross-ride and the actual groan-inducer of the format. It makes no sense to ban MLB and DOTE (Tsuku and Alfred don't even compare, honestly) right before releasing such a f***-up of card design, that rivals them without even trying, let alone being far stronger than both Tsuku and Alfred offensively, heck it makes Silent Tom look tame.

    What they should've done is wait for the game to evolve from BT09/10 and then decide whether certain decks are too powerful, and then realise "Hey, we can have a tier 1 dominated by these certain decks." There's a reason every other game lets that happen. It's because it's natural for there to be best decks in card games by sheer virtue of how they're designed. Trying to ban tier 1 over and over again (especially in the manner Bushiroad are doing it, I mean seriously you can only have 2 of x cards in your deck? Why not just limit each card to 1 or something?) just leads to confusion and people lack faith in the game itself.

    Eh, pretty much said everything I wanted to.


    _________________
    Just call me Chris


    "It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else."

    Kyousuke Kousaka
    Elite Member
    Elite Member

    Posts: 1116
    Rep: 4
    Join date: 2012-05-01
    Age: 20
    Location: Above your garage.

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Kyousuke Kousaka on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:54 pm

    Actually, Chris, the philosophy is that decks that have kept other decks from seeing any kind of use/relevance in tournaments stagnates the game on a competitive level.

    Let's face it. We could all play casual and let people control the competitive scene, but at some point or another, that shit's going to affect us.


    _________________

    Touya
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member

    Posts: 128
    Rep: 16
    Join date: 2012-07-25
    Age: 21
    Location: Cincinnati

    Re: Deck Restrictions

    Post by Touya on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:45 am

    So remember how this list was supposed to stop people from running 4 grade 3s?

    It didn't work.

    Osaka Regional Decklist:

    Grade 0
    x1 Wingal Brave (FVG)
    x4 Yggdrasil Maiden, Elaine HT
    x4 Margal DT
    x4 Alabaster Owl CT
    x4 Bringer of Good Luck, Epona CT
    Grade 1
    x1 Blaster Javelin
    x3 Flash Shield, Iseult
    x3 Pongal
    x4 Knight of Friendship, Kay
    x4 Little Sage, Marron
    Grade 2
    x4 Blaste Blade
    x4 Blaster Dark
    x3 Starcall Trumpeter
    x3 Blaster Blade Spirit
    Grade 3
    x1 Majesty Lord Blaster
    x1 Exculpate the Blaster
    x2 Soul Saver Dragon

      Current date/time is Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:30 pm