Dubs vs. Subs

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    Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Yuzuru Otonashi on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:14 pm

    Title pretty much spells it out.

    Personally, I get tired of people saying how bad the majority of dubs are, when most of the time they're the same level of talent as the original, just in a Language other than Japanese. Sure, some dubs are pretty awful, such as the Vanguard dub, but others make the original pale in comparison, such as TTGL. "It's better in its natural language" is a complete falsehood, seeing as you can tell the bad seiyuu apart from the good ones, just like you can in English. If censorship is your gripe, then read the manga and be done with it. All but 2 or 3 dubs I've seen are on par or better than the original, so I prefer dubs.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Welche on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:17 pm

    I prefer dubs because I don't like to stay watching the subtitles.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Jordan, Lich Lord on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:17 pm

    I like to watch both at the same time. There can be bad subs and dubs and I dont prefer either one, I just want to watch my anime Smile

    Also Vanguards dub isn't half bad, I just dont like Kamui's voice. Kyou's is a little annoying too.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:30 pm

    Just want to say that using Vanguard as an example is stupid beyond belief. It's already terrible, the protagonist is a barely likeable person, and an embarrassment, especially when a main character should be one you can at least remotely look up to, and truly consider likeable. Personally, I found the english version not to be worse, but just equally poor. But this is a discussion for another topic.

    OT: I don't get why people like watching things in a language they don't understand. I've done it once, and honestly it was a pretty wasted experience. It's far from interesting, seeing as I have no grip on the japanese language itself, and subtitles really take the emphasis on things a voice in the right language would give out.

    I'm also not one to constantly whine about censorship, since in the western world anime is generally aimed at a younger audience; It's not intended for teenagers. Yes, they essentially change the demographic that the japanese set, but that's because as a culture we often consider "cartoons" to have more of a childish appeal, so I personally don't see why people do complain about it, especially when in the end it's the same product, and the only difference is a couple of words from a sub'd episode, which you can actually hear and make sense of. Rarely, a few scenes are changed too, but that's often because western society is a wuss when it comes to violence, especially in the presence of children.

    I dislike anime for the very reason I used to like it. To me it just seems too childish, and my personal form of entertainment, nowadays, when it comes to something along the lines of a TV program is either something thought provoking or is of a higher quality of comedy.

    Fun fact: Less than a third of this post was actually on-topic and idgaf.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Rodrigo on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:39 pm

    I haven't watched Angel Beats! in Japanese, but the dub was extremely good.

    I usually prefer Sub though.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Yuzuru Otonashi on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:52 pm

    Tamiyo wrote:Just want to say that using Vanguard as an example is stupid beyond belief. It's already terrible, the protagonist is a barely likeable person, and an embarrassment, especially when a main character should be one you can at least remotely look up to, and truly consider likeable. Personally, I found the english version not to be worse, but just equally poor. But this is a discussion for another topic.
    While I'm not particularly fond of Aichi, that's actually a pretty bad point. Katekyou Hitman Reborn's lead is an idiot that constantly fails in school, constantly runs away from school for fear of failure, has next to no friends, and only has a crush on the girl he does because she was only girl to talk to him in a year. His nick-name is "no-good Tsuna" because he sucks at pretty much everything. The only thing he has going for him is becoming a Mafia boss... Who's opposed to being in the mafia, at all.

    Then there's Simon the Digger, who starts as a wimpy weird kid with a fondness for digging. He's the main character, but until the death of his bro he was not a main at all. Kamina took that spot, in Simon's stead. When Kamina dies? Simon goes into a depressive, almost vegetative, state for over a week. He spends all his time moping or carving Kamina statues with his drill, until he meets Nia, but goes right back to it. He only breaks out of it when he has to finally man up and take the lead, because he's the only one that can. But up until that episode, Simon isn't anyone to look up to, at all.

    Thing is that growth is what makes them worth it. You're right with Aichi's case, but those points in general are wrong. Loser mains tend to become absolutely amazing characters, in the end.

    And Vanguard was the worst dub off the top of my head.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:01 pm

    I think the key phrase in your post was "in the end."

    As one that grew up with the mediocrity of Beyblade and Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokémon, my experience with popular animé has always been that of one which has self-confident main characters, who are almost like an inspiration to an easily-influenced child.

    Characters with dispositions similar to Aichi's are just not entertaining to watch. You said so yourself that "in the end" they become great characters. It doesn't mean that in their time of being pathetic they are somehow "good". They're piss-poor pieces of writing, on the creator's part. They aren't worth being the focus unless they are something a main character should be. Key traits of good main characters tend to be that they are self-confident, often good role models depending on the given situation (so naturally this won't apply to all (if many) animés), they should generally also be a relatable character (again, this can change depending on the animé, but at the very least you should be able to empathise, which with characters like Aichi you can't, since they literally mope around for no given reason), among other positive traits. Key word there is positive. No one with a (in my opinion) sense of decent taste will enjoy watching a main character that's utterly pathetic.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Jordan, Lich Lord on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:06 pm

    There are a lot more character types that are good than just Self Confident, Good Role Model, Reliable charatcers.

    I find a character that just stays happy all the time no matter the situation and can always manage to succeed to be frankly boring.


    Last edited by Jordan, Lich Lord on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:08 pm

    You do realise what I described is literally just a generic description of virtually every successful main character in modern media, right?


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Welche on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:11 pm

    I would just like to remind users that the negative rep button should not be used for differences in opinion, but spam and flaming and trolling. Chris is being treated harshly.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:17 pm

    It's an interesting note, actually, no matter how many times I state that something is entirely my opinion while actually using logical reason, people still feel the need to neg posts I make entirely because their opinion differs from mine. It makes people seem really pathetic.

    I'm not one to care for my rep count, but it's still stupid to see 10 negative reps given to me, on almost always subjective discussion.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ruby on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:17 pm

    A good amount of English Dubs are terrible. That's just my opinion, but I still felt the need to voice that.

    There are plenty of brilliant dubs however, such as Gurren Lagann's, FMA's, Bleach's(before the more recent episodes where the actors seem to just hate their jobs), the Duel Monsters Era Yugioh (Dan Green <3), Code Geass, and so on.

    I prefer Japanese Dubs, not because of the natural language or any of that mess. I only find Seiyuus more fitting because the animations and such are more fixed for their voices, which tends to drill into people's minds that any different way is awful. But part of the reason is because English Dubs can't do anything but just find voices that could fit. Japan gets to have the idea of the type of voice a character will have and put it in with no trouble, which is their only advantage.

    English Dubs can be perfectly fine if you can find those right actors though. ... Unfortunately, said actors are everywhere to the point where it's irritating. I mean, Yuri, Johnny, Vic, etc, they're in everything.

    Also, I'm not for Dubs vs Subs, when I just watch Raws nowadays anyway.

    And to Chris' argument, that's a general opinion. Some people hate the main characters who are always successful/win all the time/have self-confidence. Examples are Yusei, Yuma, Gingka of Beyblade: Metal Force, and so on. While I do agree that it is very irritating to see protagonists being pathetic, it's satisfying when you finally see that character grow up. It's easy for people to relate with a character have self-esteem issues and such. When they step up, it'll be an inspiration for viewers.

    I agree on Aichi being the worst protagonist to exist though.

    Also, people, stop abusing negative reputation. This isn't somewhere that you just make people look bad for having an opinion. >_>


    Last edited by Erza Scarlet on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Yuzuru Otonashi on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:28 pm

    Neither Tsuna nor Simon are piss poor pieces of writing.

    Both KHR and TTGL focus around "coming of age". Simon does it suddenly, Tsuna spends the 401 chapters of the manga thus far doing so. It's ABOUT the growth.

    Tsuna's extremely comical with how pathetic he is, at first, and somewhat as the manga goes on. He constantly can be seen growing from "No-Good Tsuna", though next to no one lets him live that down. He doesn't want to be a Mafia Boss, at all. He doesn't want to be a Mafia boss, even now, but that's the very reason he's supposed to become one. He's a good person who constantly grows thanks to all the things that happen around him, without becoming jaded by it all. As for being able to resonate with him, depending on your background, it can be extremely easy to do so.

    Simon spends the first 8 episodes at Kamina's side or in his shadow. He's nothing special, just a quiet boy with a thing for digging and a pet pigmole. Kamina brings out the best in Simon, and Simon keeps Kamina alive and well by not letting him be an idiot. This doesn't change the fact that everyone in his village looked down on him, sans Kamina. He starts out as that weird kid that spends all day digging, who only Kamina sees potential in, and becomes, well, even better than Kamina. Resonating with him is also fairly easy, especially when his biggest fall is when Kamina, the only person that has confidence in him, dies, and he centralizes the blame.

    Starting as a pathetic character is NOT bad writing. Just because you don't really like a main off the bat doesn't mean that he's badly done. Tsuna's draw, initially, is the madness Reborn gets him involved in. Simon has Kamina for a similar purpose. Both lead their respective losers into becoming a "man", and they are one of the best in each of their casts. They're such great characters BECAUSE they were losers. The development they receive is what cements them as what they are. They're positive role models because they go from loser to self-confident, at least when needed, reliable, and all around characters that personify the fact that no one is hopeless.

    Of course the archetype applies to a smaller demographic that general mains, but the wide-spread success of TTGL would imply that the demographic isn't as small as people in general would like to believe. If people stopped when Kamina died, I'd give it to you, but they stay for the other 18 episodes (review episode ommited) after he's dead.

    Aichi's an awful one of these, because the growth is absent.

    And like Zeo pointed out, people that are always on top are often viewed as awful. Some of the biggest criticisms I've heard for yugioh was the fact that the mains hardly ever lose. Yusei "loses" all of like twice, Yuma once that matters iirc, Atem/Yugi barely lost anything, and Jaden... Point being "ALL I DO IS WIN" is fairly terrible, as it leads to very little character growth that is essential to a good character.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ruby on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:35 pm

    To be fair, the Yugioh Fanbase is kind of stupid. They hated Yusei for winning all the time, then hated Yuma for being an idiot and losing every last non-important duel, and even the plot-related one against Shark.

    Also, people did stop when Kamina died. A small group of people who worshipped Kamina and believed there was no hope for the show after that, but still.

    Can't make progress without making development.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:41 pm

    Well, all I can say is that now your point on growth makes actual sense, where it didn't before in the way you put it across.

    And that's fair when there's actual growth, so I have absolutely nothing to add or say otherwise at this point.


    From the animé I've actually seen, I've only really seen one protagonist I can say is actually truly good design anyway. It might even seem a bit weird to some people.

    The character I'm referring to is Tyson from Beyblade. He's honestly the perfect example of a good "person-to-be" without being over-the-top-amazing. I do only recall this from the first series of the show, however, so I won't comment anything on V-Force and G-Revolution or anything that may have come after that, as anything after V-Force is foreign to me, and V-Force is a very foggy memory. However, in the original series, he began as a confident character, you can easily identify with. He's a happy-go-lucky child with a dream, heck we can all relate to that. When we join him in the story, he's the best in his local area, but soon finds himself to not be as good as he thought. You actually see him grow and mature as a character as he strives to get better at his dream. Not only that, he actually shows realistic emotion a lot of the time, as do the rest of the main characters. They all have a real sense of shown emotion and empathy, and actually seem like they could be real people. This may seem like an odd point to make, but when you look at a lot of animé (again, this is all from my personal experience and interpretation) characters rarely show signs of realistically being "human". A lot of the time a character will be unrealistically sad for an unrealistic amount of time, even when they get everything they want (perfect example being Aichi, but I am beyond certain there are others), and then you have the overly happy all the time even when it makes no sense to be characters (such as Yuma). The point I guess I'm trying to get at is, that from the way I view animé, a lot of the time writers tend to over-do their design for characters and plots, to the point where they really do become 1-dimensional, and I know fans will protest otherwise like the mindless drones they can be, but I speak as someone indifferent to the situation, with no bias, just a basis I have from growing up.

    Now, whether I actually portrayed my point in the preceding wall of text, I don't know. I'm kinda tired, and distracted by other things in general. I hope my point did come across though, and I hope it makes sense why I tend to look down on animé when a lot of the time the character design doesn't even live up to that of something as simple as Beyblade's.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Rodrigo on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:44 pm

    itt









    All in all, most of the debate here comes down to personal opinion. A lot of people also dislike to have to read the speeches (which is a bit troublesome and ultimately reduces the attention you pay to the show itself), but I don't really have a problem with that.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ruby on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:50 pm

    I see your point on Tyson being a well designed character. He's confident, but not the best, and grows as the show goes on. He still climbs up to being a great blader, even though he was convinced that he was already.

    I also understand what you mean on unrealistic. Though, on the "unrealistically sad for an unrealistic amount of time, even when they get everything they want" bit... a good example of how this could be used as good development was from Zuko in Avatar when his father accepted him. He still wasn't happy, just furious and upset. ... Yeah, I know that barely counts as an anime, but my point still stands.

    This is why I like Persona games and the like, your cast consists of human protagonists(Aigis included to an extent). They grow, and so does the protagonist. Minato starts off as a lazy, but brilliant and usually sleepy hero, but grows to be a loving friend and a hero with his fellow Persona Users. And Yu from Persona 4 starts out as a somewhat apathetic hero who doesn't show much emotion, but he grows out of that and leaves as a best friend to his entire group, who were just a bunch of teenagers who just all got randomly involved with a serial murder case.

    and this has nothing to do with dubs vs subs, whoops


    Last edited by Erza Scarlet on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ashiok on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:54 pm

    Erza Scarlet wrote:
    I also understand what you mean on unrealistic. Though, on the "unrealistically sad for an unrealistic amount of time, even when they get everything they want" bit... a good example of how this could be used as good development was from Zuko in Avatar when his father accepted him. He still wasn't happy, just furious and upset. ... Yeah, I know that barely counts as an anime, but my point still stands.

    and this has nothing to do with dubs vs subs, whoops

    Animé by definition is just animation (usually of japanese origin, but the key word there is usually), so it does count. Although, from the perspective I have, which is unknowing of this scenario, it doesn't seem like good character development to be unrealistically sad. The characters are being portrayed as humans, so they really should at least resemble some form of humanity. If not, then don't make them humans or at least give them a good reason.

    It's healthy discussion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The overall topic of subs vs dubs is pretty shallow and bland anyway.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Ruby on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:58 pm

    Tamiyo wrote:
    Erza Scarlet wrote:I also understand what you mean on unrealistic. Though, on the "unrealistically sad for an unrealistic amount of time, even when they get everything they want" bit... a good example of how this could be used as good development was from Zuko in Avatar when his father accepted him. He still wasn't happy, just furious and upset. ... Yeah, I know that barely counts as an anime, but my point still stands.

    and this has nothing to do with dubs vs subs, whoops

    Animé by definition is just animation (usually of japanese origin, but the key word there is usually), so it does count. Although, from the perspective I have, which is unknowing of this scenario, it doesn't seem like good character development to be unrealistically sad. The characters are being portrayed as humans, so they really should at least resemble some form of humanity. If not, then don't make them humans or at least give them a good reason.

    It's healthy discussion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The overall topic of subs vs dubs is pretty shallow and bland anyway.

    It isn't good development if it's fixated on one exaggerated emotion for usually terrible reasons, which is why Aichi is bad. I'm just saying that in the same situations, when that reason is fully explained and understood, it's usually good.

    I know, but it's not on this topic. This would be better off as a whole 'nother thread.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Garazza on Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:40 pm

    Dubs are just easier for me to watch.

    This video is basically where I stand in theses kinds of debates.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Magic Man on Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:21 am

    I prefer to watch the dubbed version, if there's one available. Even now, I'm waiting for Stein;Gate's dub to be fully released before watching it. It's easier to pay attention to what's going on, or even to check on something in another tab without fear of missing something important.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Kira on Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:27 am

    I always prefer the sub, but I used to like the dub more, so I know the defenses to both of the sides. I just like to watch it with no censorship. But I used to be too lazy to read the subs. lol


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Dawn on Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:56 am

    Mirajane Strauss wrote:I always prefer the sub, but I used to like the dub more, so I know the defenses to both of the sides. I just like to watch it with no censorship. But I used to be too lazy to read the subs. lol
    I agree with this, and what Yuzuru said in the sense that I do prefer dubs sometimes. As another example but probably a bad one the dub of Deadman Wonderland got me to even try out more than the first episode (and I finished it), because it isn't the kind of thing I would normally watch.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Yusei Fudou on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:30 pm

    Dubs and Subs can both be better, or just as good as either, it just happens that the subs are better than most, but not all of the dubs, Dragon Ball Z dub is better than subbed, in my opinion, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Cell, and better yet, I should say, Funimation and VizMedia have great voice actors.


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    Re: Dubs vs. Subs

    Post by Rodrigo on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:41 pm

    Yusei Fudou wrote:Dubs and Subs can both be better, or just as good as either, it just happens that the subs are better than most, but not all of the dubs, Dragon Ball Z dub is better than subbed, in my opinion, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Cell, and better yet, I should say, Funimation and VizMedia have great voice actors.

    The Brazilian dub for Dragon Ball Z is better than the English Dub for me.


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